Russisch-Georgisch conflict moet opmaat zijn tot verzet tegen de Navo

Op 7 augustus trekken Georgische troepen Zuid-Ossetie binnen. Daags erna trekken Russische troepen het gebied in, waarna het al langer lopende conflict een voorlopig hoogtepunt bereikt. De trieste balans telt op dit moment volgens onbevestigde cijfers aan beide zijden enkele duizenden doden en volgens de VN ruim 100.000 mensen op de vlucht.

Vrijwel onmiddellijk kiezen politici en media uit Westen partij voor Georgië. Opmerkelijk, aangezien juist Georgië het conflict laat escaleren. Nu gaat het mij er niet om partij te kiezen voor Rusland of om Rusland als schoolvoorbeeld van een democratie neer te zetten, maar de reactie van de Russen kan toch moeilijk als onverwacht worden beschouwd. Sinds de ineenstorting van het ‘reëel bestaand socialisme’ is Rusland veel invloed en status kwijt geraakt. Diverse landen uit de voormalige Sovjet-Unie werden onafhankelijk van Moskou en sluiten zich aan bij de Europese Unie en de Navo. Sinds Poetin is een belangrijke pijler in het Russische buitenlands beleid de gedachte dat Rusland een wereldmacht was, is en vooral moet blijven. Zowel politiek als economisch als geografisch bijt Rusland laatste jaren flink van zich af. Dit hebben we bijvoorbeeld kunnen zien in de oorlog met Tsjetsjenië, maar ook aan de onderdrukking van de binnenlandse oppositie en de diverse handelsconflicten met EU-lidstaten.

Het gaat te ver om Georgië als een satelliet staat van de VS te betitelen. Maar om Georgië en met name resident Saakasjvili als een schoothondje van de VS en haar bondgenoten te beschouwen lijkt mij zeer reëel. Afgelopen jaren is Georgië militair en financieel flink gesteund door VS en heeft de VS zich er hard voor gemaakt dat Georgië lid moet worden van de Navo. Ook nu het conflict met Rusland is geëscaleerd gaat de VS stug door met het leveren van wapens en munitie. Om een Russische blokkade naar Georgië te omzeilen gaan de leveringen tegenwoordig via Jordanië.

De innige relatie tussen Georgië en de VS en de Navo gaan terug tot begin jaren ’90. In 1994 neemt Georgië deel aan het Navo project Partnership for Peace, een samenwerkingsverband tussen de NAVO en niet-Navo landen. Enkele jaren levert Georgië troepen aan de Kfor, de ‘vredesmacht’ van de Navo in Kosovo. Vanaf dat moment gaat het hard en sluiten de Navo en Georgië het ene verdrag na het andere en fungeert Georgië onder meer als doorvoerhaven van Navo materiaal naar Afghanistan. Tijdens de Navo-top in Boekarest in april dit jaar spreken de Navo-lidstaten de intentie uit dat zodra Georgië militair en technisch ‘bij is’ lid word van de Navo.

Dat de VS, maar ook andere Navo landen zo happig zijn op de toenaderingspogingen van Georgië is niet vreemd. Geografisch gezien ligt Georgië erg strategisch. Buurland van zowel grootmacht Rusland als regionale grootmacht Turkije en relatief dicht bij (al dan niet voormalige) ‘schurkenstaten’ als Irak, Iran en Afghanistan. Een groot gebied wat sinds de ineenstorting van de Sovjet-Unie politiek instabiel is en waar veel valt te halen. Zo beschikt Georgië over meerdere zeehavens, liggen er belangrijke oliepijpleidingen en olieraffinaderijen. Niet zo verwonderlijk dat de VS en andere Navo-lidstaten maar al te graag een oogje dichtknijpen wanneer president Saakasjvili democratische principes aan z’n laars lapt. Zo worden twee kritische TV-zenders gesloten en wordt het leger op een demonstratie afgestuurd. Binnenlandse tegenstanders verwijten Saakasjvili dat hij zich schuldig maakt aan vriendjespolitiek, corruptie en de economische hervormingen zouden de armoede vergroten. Na de verkiezingen begin dit jaar waarbij Saakasjvili nipt won, verklaarde internationale waarnemers dat het woord ‘eerlijk’ niet van toepassing was op deze verkiezingen

 

Nogmaals, het gaat mij er niet om Rusland te verdedigen. Maar in dit conflict vechten Rusland en Georgië als twee honden om een bot. De VS en de Navo zijn de lachende derde.

Teleurstellend zijn de terughoudende of afwezige reacties van linkse organisaties en partijen. Op veel linkse websites wordt de oorlog niet eens genoemd. Een twijfelachtige stilte, zeker omdat sinds de Navo-top in Boekarest het nog maar enkele jaren duurt voordat Georgië officieel een bondgenoot van de Navo-lidstaten is en dus ook van Nederland. Artikel 5 van het Noord-Atlantisch Verdrag, de beginselverklaring uit 1949, stelt dat “een gewapende aanval tegen een (…) als een aanval tegen allen zal worden beschouwd”. Met andere woorden. Als Georgië al volledig lid was van de Navo, dan was Nederland feitelijk in oorlog met nucelaire grootmacht Rusland. Een situatie die maar weinig mensen in Nederland als prettig zullen ervaren.

Na de ineenstorting van de Sovjet-Unie werd er in Nederland een publiek debat gevoerd over de toekomst van de Navo en de rol van Nederland hierin. Vrij snel zakte deze discussie weer in en voor eigenlijk alle politieke partijen in Nederland is het vanzelfsprekend dat Nederland nog steeds lid is van de Navo. Toch worstelen met name de linkse partijen met hun houding ten opzichte van de Navo. Binnen zowel GroenLinks als de SP is de Navo een heet hangijzer. In haar laatste verkiezingsprogramma stelt de SP dat Nederland lid moet blijven van de Navo om zodoende meer grip en democratische controle op de Navo uit te kunnen oefenen. Wel keert de partij zich consequent tegen Navo-missies. Daarnaast pleit Harry van Bommel van de SP voor opschorting van toenadering van Georgië tot de Navo. Ook GroenLinks pleit voor hervorming van de Navo. Hoewel deze wat naïeve standpunten de officiële partijstandpunten zijn is er zeker grote onvrede onder veel leden van beide partijen.

 

Het huidige conflict tussen Georgië en Rusland is het zoveelste conflict sinds het uiteenvallen van de Sovjet-Unie wat mede is aangewakkerd door de VS en de Navo. Anders dan de Navo zelf beweerd draagt zij niet bij tot vrede of stabiliteit in de wereld. Laat staan mensenrechten of democratie. De harde realiteit laat zien dat de Navo enkel een militair verlengstuk is van Westerse economische belangen. Linkse- en vredesorganisaties in Nederland zouden er goed aan doen de oppositie binnen de linkse partijen tegen het Navo standpunt van de partijen te steunen. Het is politiek gezien onmogelijk om als links partij te kiezen voor dan wel Rusland of Georgië. Links kan zich beter richten op verzet tegen de Navo. Laat het huidige conflict een aanleiding hiertoe zijn!

Dit artikel verscheen eerder op 17 augustus op Kritisch Links, weblog van het tijdschrift Grenzeloos.

Achterhoekse Nijmo’s van Smash The Statues zijn klaar voor Affaire

“Zien zij ook eens een punkband”

De Achterhoekse Nijmo’s van Smash The Statues timmeren sinds 2003 aardig aan de weg. Na uitbrengen van het debuut ‘Against the Stream’ werkt Smash The Statues momenteel hard aan haar tweede album, dat gepland staat voor later dit jaar. De nog titelloze nieuwe cd en lp zal uitkomen op het Tilburgse punkrocklabel Shield Recordings waar de heren recentelijk een nieuw onderdak vonden. Tijdens de Vierdaagsefeesten zal de band de aftrap verzorgen van de PAN Local Edition.
 
- Kun je in het kort de geschiedenis van de band beschrijven?
Tom: “In 2003 zijn we begonnen met de band Smash The Statues, destijds nog in een iets andere bezetting dan nu. Datzelfde jaar hebben wij tevens onze demo opgenomen. Daarna hebben we veel shows gespeeld. In 2005 hebben we ons album opgenomen. Vlak voor ons album uitkwam is onze toenmalige drummer Gijs ermee opgehouden. Hij is vervangen door Bert. Na het verschijnen van onze cd hebben we opnieuw veel opgetreden. In 2006 is bassiste Marloes wegens tijdgebrek gestopt. Vervolgens hebben we Nico gevraagd om bij ons te komen bassen. Hij leek ons wel een aardige kerel en hij had ook al onze cd opgenomen, dus hij was bekend met de muziek. Sinds Nico bij de band zit is het allemaal beter gaan lopen met Smash The Statues. We zijn meer shows gaan spelen, ook in het buitenland, zoals Duitsland, Engeland, Noorwegen en Slovenie.”
 
In april hebben jullie in Scandinavië getourd, hoe is dat tot stand gekomen?
Tom: “We hebben toen in Duitsland, Zweden en Noorwegen gespeeld. Een jaar of twee geleden ben ik in contact gekomen met Micke, hij speelde vroeger in Adhesive, een Zweedse punkband. Dat is toch altijd een van mijn favouriete bands geweest. Pas toen die band uit elkaar was hebben we via MySpace contact gelegd. Enige tijd later begon hij een nieuwe band, The Indecision Alarm. Zij hebben in mei 2007 vier dagen in Nederland gespeeld. Een week later zijn wij een paar dagen naar Zweden geweest. Dit jaar zijn we opnieuw voor tien dagen die kant op gegaan, ditmaal samen met Antillectual, een bevriende band.”
 
Hebben jullie nog leuke tour anecdotes?
Tom (lachend): “Nee, alles ging de eerste keer goed. Bij eerdere tours hebben we de bus van de moeder van Nico geleend en deze hebben we elke keer kapot teruggebracht. Er was altijd wel wat. We zijn zelfs een keer in de vangrail gereden. Zelf ben ik ook altijd goed in het doodrijden van konijnen en duiven. Dat compenseer ik weer door thuis geen vlees te eten.” Matthias: “De tweede avond van de tour speelden we in Neumünster in Duitsland. Dat was op de vooravond van Hitler’s geboortedag. Die plaats staat bekend vanwege, laten we zeggen, de kaalkoppige inwoners.”
Tom: “De week ervoor hadden locale antifascisten het honk van de neo-nazi’s aangevallen. Vandaar dat er wel wat spanning werd verwacht, te meer omdat het jongerencentrum honderd meter van het nazihonk af lag. Tijdens ons concert zaten de nazi’s in een kroeg een blok verder om Hitler’s verjaardag te vieren.”
Tom (lachend): “Die kroeg heette de Titanic. Over zinkende schepen gesproken! Bij onze slaapplekken was het wel wat onrustig. Daar waren wat rellen in de straat. Verder verliep de tour redeleijk relaxed. Wat wel matig is aan Zweden is dat je bijna nergens wat te drinken krijgt bij shows. Je krijgt soms een glaasje fris en dat was het dan. Maar goed, bier is ook behoorlijk duur daar, dus we hebben thuis flink wat halve liters ingeslagen. Zodoende is het toch nog goed gekomen.”
 
Naast Smash The Statues hebben jullie redelijk wat zijprojecten.
Tom: “Ik was altijd degene die twee of drie bands ernaast had en nu heb ik voor het eerst helemaal niks. Alleen Smash The Statues.”
Mattias: “Op dit moment heb ik een side-project met onze Nico, Killed For Less. We spelen een kruising tussen hardcore en rock’n’roll. In Killed For Less zijn Nico en ik van rol gewisseld; hij speelt gitaar en ik bas.”
Tom: “Bert, onze drummer, speelt ook in de Tenement Kids. Zij spelen erg veel momenteel. Hij speelt ook in PKG, een punkrockbandje wat al tien jaar, bestaat maar eigenlijk bijna nooit optreedt.”
 
Er komt een nieuwe cd uit op Shield Recordings?
Mattias: “In augutus gaan we een weekje de studio in, dan gaan we onze nieuwe cd opnemen. We hopen de cd dan in november dit jaar uit te brengen.”
Tom: “We zijn al een tijdje met ze in gesprek. Gert-Jan en Fieke (van het label) zijn allebei erg betrokken bij de hardcore- en punkscene, dus het leek ons een goede keuze om met hen in zee te gaan.”
 
Jullie spelen tijdens de zomerfeesten op het Valkhof. Vind je het niet lastig om als punkband op zo’n festival te spelen?
Mattias (lachend): “Ik denk dat het lastiger is voor het publiek dan voor ons. Ik vind het gewoon leuk om een keer tijdens de Vierdaagsefeesten te spelen. Ik hang er zelf ieder jaar rond, dus het is gewoon te gek om daar dan zelf een keer te staan.”
Tom: “Er spelen ieder jaar wel punkbands. Vorig jaar speelde Brat Pack, het jaar daarvoor Antillectual en daarvoor The Bips en Bambix.”
 
Maar ik kan mij zo voorstellen dat Bambix weer net iets toegankelijker is dan jullie?
Mattias: “Ongetwijfeld.”
Tom: “Voor ons is het gewoon erg leuk dat we voor een totaal ander publiek kunnen spelen. Als je in de Onderbroek of Merleyn speelt sta je toch iedere keer voor dezelfde gezichten. Nu we op het Valkhof staan is de kans groot dat we voor veel mensen spelen die ons nog nooit hebben gezien.”
Mattias: “Zien die mensen ook eens een punkband.”
 
Smash The Statues speelt op zondag 13 juli om 14.00 uur op de De Affaire, locatie Club Voerweg.

Dit interview verscheen eerder op de website 3VOOR12 Arnhem-Nijmegen op zaterdag 12 juli 2008

Snotapen van Brat Pack ontgroeien Nijmegen

“We waren eigenlijk bang dat we tussen wal en schip zouden vallen”

De Nijmeegse hardcorepunkformatie Brat Pack laat er geen gras over groeien. Na een flinke reeks shows in binnen- en buitenland en een EP is er nu het debuutalbum. Een plaat die doet denken aan het oudere werk van Bad Religion en NoFX en een band als 7 Seconds. Hoewel het Brat Pack redelijk voor de wind lijkt te gaan, blijft de band er zelf redelijk laconiek onder. “We zaten in de kroeg en besloten weer een bandje te gaan beginnen. We hebben een paar keer geoefend, wat nummertjes geschreven en hebben toen onze demo opgenomen. Deze sloeg erg goed aan waarna we meer zijn gaan optreden”, aldus Bas. Rody: “Op een gegeven moment is onze demo op 7” uitgebracht en toen zijn we begonnen met het opnemen van onze eigen plaat.”
 
Toch kunnen de heren van Brat Pack niet ontkennen dat ze zelf ook verbaasd zijn over de vele positieve response die de band krijgt. Bas: “We zijn wel erg verbaasd dat we zoveel in Nederland spelen. Toen we begonnen waren we een beetje bang dat we tussen wal en schip in zouden vallen. Je hebt in Nederland hardcorepubliek en punkpubliek. Omdat wij toch een kruising hiertussen zijn, waren we vooraf bang dat beide groepen onze muziek niet zouden oppikken.” Rody: “Uiteindelijk pikken ze het juist allebei wel op. Hierdoor hebben we een twee keer zo groot publiek. Ik sta eigenlijk ook wel te kijken hoe goed onze demo is aangeslagen. Eigenlijk hebben we vanaf het begin veel optredens gehad.” Bas: “We hebben zelf ook tours geregeld en als band hebben wij er hard achteraan gezeten. Het is niet zo dat we helemaal niks hebben hoeven doen en ons alles is aangedragen.”
 
Hoewel de band pas twee jaar bestaat hebben eigenlijk alle leden hun sporen al verdiend in een heel scala aan locale punk- en hardcorebands. Zanger Ken speelde eerder in My Reply (hardcore) en is momenteel in de VS op tour met zijn andere band Citizens Patrol (hardcore). Bassist Rody en gitarist Bas speelden eerder samen in Code Blue (hardcore). Roel drumde enkele jaren geleden in The Bips (punk) en speelde later met Bas in Beans (skapunk) en met Rody in The Lubricants (punk). Een aantal maanden geleden vond de eerste bezettingswisseling plaats. Bas: “Onze eerste gitarist Willem speelt ook in Antillectual. Omdat Antillectueel erg goed bezig is kon hij beide bands eigenlijk niet meer combineren. Als hij met beide bands was doorgegaan – wat hij waarschijnlijk graag zou hebben gedaan – dan zouden beide bands daar waarschijnlijk onder lijden. Om die reden is hij er een half jaar geleden mee gestopt.” Rody: “Jeroen is onze nieuwe gitarist. Hij speelt ook in Frightening Fiction (hardcore) en heeft ook lange tijd in All Under Age (skatepunk) gespeeld.”
 
Begin mei presenteerde Brat Pack haar debuutalbum ‘Hate The Neighbours’. Het album is zowel op cd als op vinyl uitgebracht door maar liefst drie verschillende platenlabels. Rody: “We wilden zelf graag dat onze cd door verschillende labels uitgebracht zou worden. Zeg maar per gebied in Europa een ander label. We denken dat dit een betere distributie en promotie oplevert. Het Nederlandse label Crucial Attack lag heel erg voor de hand. We kennen labelbaas Franke al langer en hij brengt hele leuke dingen uit met zijn label en hij werkt gewoon erg hard voor zijn bands.” Bas: “In Duitsland zitten we op Dirty Faces. Toen ze onze opnames hoorden hebben ze deze drie dagen achter geluisterd. In het voormalig Joegoslavië zitten we op Ha-Ko Bastards. Op deze manier hopen wij toch in heel Europa mensen te bereiken. Je hebt tegewoordig behalve Reflections Records weinig labels meer die heel Europa nog dekken.” Rody: “We hebben nog bijna geen recensies gelezen van onze cd, maar de paar die ik heb gelezen waren erg positief. Zelf zijn we er ook erg tevreden over het resultaat.” “De cd is wat minder rauw dan onze demo. Ook staan er wat meer langere nummers op”, vult Bas aan. Rody: “Ik denk dat de cd wat afwisselender is.”
 
Net als afgelopen jaar zal Brat Pack ook dit jaar weer optreden tijdens de De Affaire tijdens de Vierdaagsefeesten. Rody: “Vorig jaar was de eerste editie van de Local Edition van Stichting Pan op De Affaire. Daar zijn we toen voor gevraagd met in het achterhoofd het idee dat bands die daar zouden staan eventueel de jaren er op kunnen doorgroeien naar het avondprogramma. Dat is ook gebeurd. Dit jaar spelen er op De Affaire sowieso een stuk meer locale bands.” Bas: “Vorig jaar speelden we op de zondagmiddag en toen hebben we het goed naar ons zin gehad, dus we gaan er van uit dat het dit jaar ook wel weer leuk zal worden.”
 
Brat Pack speelt op woensdag 16 juli om 20.00 uur op de De Affaire, locatie Club Voerweg

Dit interview verscheen eerder op maandag 30 juni op de website 3VOOR12 Arnhem-Nijmegen

Aanhang Wilders zal als eerste de klappen voelen

Februari 2008 – Terwijl regering, parlement en media zich massaal op Wilders’ aangekondigde film Fitna richten, publiceert het SP tijdschrift Spanning een nummer dat geheel gewijd is aan de Partij Van de Vrijheid. In het themanummer Wat Wilders Wil neemt het wetenschappelijk bureau van de SP de ideeën, retoriek en de kamerleden van die partij onder de loep. De publicatie van Wat Wilders Wil is een van de eerste keren dat de SP zich zo expliciet over Wilders en de PVV uitlaat. Tegelijkertijd is het een welkome aanvulling op het huidige debat over de PVV. Grenzeloos sprak met de voorzitter van het wetenschappelijk bureau en Tweede Kamerlid Ronald van Raak.

‘De discussie over Wilders moet inhoudelijker. Er wordt teveel over de vorm gesproken die Wilders kiest, maar de discussie moet over zijn ideeën gaan, vandaar deze Spanning. De SP wil niet alleen een discussie over de extreemrechtse ideeën van Wilders over bijvoorbeeld de Islam en allochtonen. De SP wil ook een discussie over armoede, woningbouw, zorg en veiligheid. De ideeën die Wilders over migranten en moslims heeft zullen in de praktijk gewoon tot een vorm van apartheid leiden.’ Op eenvoudige, maar gedegen wijze, somt het nummer van Spanning op wat Wilders ideeën op sociaal en economisch vlak zijn. Het mes moet in de sociale voorzieningen, het minimumloon moet worden afgeschaft, de arbeidsmarkt wordt verder geflexibiliseerd en bedrijven moeten mensen makkelijker kunnen ontslaan. Van Raak: ‘Ik denk dat als de ideeën van Wilders werkelijkheid worden een groot deel van zijn aanhang als eerste de klappen zal voelen.’ Het is een verstandige keuze van SP om de PVV niet alleen als racisten te verketteren maar ze ook te ontmaskeren als een ultra-liberale partij die de meeste mensen niets te bieden heeft. Hoewel Wilders zich in 2004 van de VVD afscheidde en in 2005 zijn eerste ideeën uiteen zette in zijn boek Kies voor vrijheid, heeft de SP zich tot nu toe behoorlijk afzijdig gehouden in de media-hype rondom Wilders. In Wat Wilders Wil roept de SP politici vooral op om terughoudend te reageren op de uitlatingen van Wilders. ‘Wilders is hoogst zelden te zien in serieuze programma’s waar hem door een opponent of interviewer het vuur aan na aan de schenen kan worden gelegd. Zijn schok-retoriek plaatst zijn standpunten waar ze het best gedijen: in de vette koppen van de kranten.’ Het themanummer van de Spanning is volgens Van Raak in eerste instantie een handreiking naar de SP’ers in het land; ‘omdat er zo weinig aandacht is voor de ideeën van Wilders, merken wij dat veel SP’ers het lastig vinden om op de markt of in het buurthuis de discussie over Wilders aan te gaan. Met deze brochure willen wij deze mensen ondersteunen.’ Dat het toch een aantal jaren duurde voordat de SP zich direct uitsprak over het oprukkend rechts-populisme is voor het Tweede Kamerlid een begrijpelijke keuze. ‘De SP richt zich vooral op het regeringsbeleid. Van dit beleid maken wij voortdurend analyses en dit beleid proberen wij te bekritiseren en beïnvloeden. De laatste tijd zie je vooral dat politici met elkaar praten in plaats van over inhoudelijke problemen. Wij als partij willen hier niet aan mee doen.’ Hoewel de SP zich nu mengt in de discussies rondom de PVV houdt zij zich nog opvallend afzijdig bij protesten tegen deze partij. Zowel de ‘beweging van fatsoen’ van oud-CNV voorman Doekle Terpstra als de recente initiatieven van Nederland Bekend Kleur worden door de SP weggewuifd. In de ogen van Van Raak is ‘het buiten de kamer demonstreren tegen andere kamerleden gewoon een farce. Wij als SP vinden dat je je niet op de persoon Wilders moet richten, maar op de ideeën van Wilders.’ In de Spanning doet de SP hier nog een ‘parlementair’ schepje boven op; ‘De oproep van Terpstra kopieert Wilders’ stijl en diskwalificeert tegelijk de Tweede Kamer als de plaats waar weerwoord moet worden gegeven aan Wilders’. Ook SP Tweede Kamerlid Harry van Bommel laat zich op zijn weblog in gelijke bewoordingen uit en suggereert dat anti-Wilders initiatieven de positie van de PVV versterken. Rare standpunten van een partij die groot is geworden door buitenparlementaire acties? Van Raak vindt van niet: ‘Als Tweede Kamerlid moet je je mening in eerste instantie in de Tweede Kamer uiten. In de Kamer uiten wij ons zeker over Wilders, kijk bijvoorbeeld maar naar Jan Marijnissen recentelijk.’ Over Nederland Bekend Kleur. ‘Hierbij werd aan kamerleden gevraagd om een petitie tegen Wilders in ontvangst te nemen. Ik vind het raar om als kamerlid een petitie tegen andere kamerleden in ontvangst te nemen. Daarnaast richt NBK zich sterk op de persoon Wilders, maar wij als SP vinden dat je je niet op de persoon Wilders moet richten, maar op zijn ideeen.’ Hoewel je best kritisch kunt zijn over de opzet van de NBK demonstratie, had de SP natuurlijk ook er ook voor kunnen kiezen om in het initiatief mee te doen en op te komen voor een ander opzet van de demonstratie. Beschuldigingen dat de SP zich bewust gedeisd houdt om PVV-stemmers niet al te veel van zich af te keren wijst Van Raak resoluut van de hand. ‘Er is juist weinig uitwisseling tussen aanhangers van de PVV en de SP. Ik denk dat mensen of links of rechts zijn. Mensen in het midden kan je nog winnen voor links of rechts. Maar mensen die links zijn stemmen links, mensen die rechts zijn stemmen rechts. Met name Groen Links en de PvdA geloven in een soort van hoefijzer model, wat suggereert dat de uiteinden van de politiek weer bij elkaar komen. Als mensen de brochure Wat Wilders Wil lezen kunnen ze zelf zien dat bijna alles wat de SP vindt tegenovergesteld is aan wat de PVV vind. Ik zou niet weten hoe wij nog meer afstand van ze zouden kunnen nemen.’ Hoewel Wat Wilders Wil de politieke ideeën van de PVV tot aan de grond toe afbrandt, wordt er weinig aandacht besteed aan de rol die andere organisaties dan de SP kunnen spelen in de strijd tegen de PVV. Ook de manier waarop de SP samen met andere organisaties die strijd wil voeren blijft onbesproken. Dat is jammer, de SP weet op ander terreinen wel met andere organisaties samen te werken. Nu is het moeilijk om zich te onttrekken aan de indruk dat de SP vooral zichzelf als hét alternatief voor de PVV beschouwt. Voor buitenparlementaire actiegroepen, sociale bewegingen of vakbonden lijkt binnen het model van de SP geen plaats in de oppositie tegen de PVV. Opmerkelijk, omdat bijvoorbeeld onder FNV-kaderleden de SP inmiddels de grootste partij is. Van Raak: ‘Ik denk dat de vakbonden wel andere prioriteiten mogen stellen. Laat ze er eerst maar eens voor zorgen dat het ontslagrecht van de baan gaat, er meer banen komen en de lonen stijgen. Dat zou pas een goed antwoord op extreemrechts zijn!’ Paul Benschop is medewerker van Alert, vakblad voor antifascisten, www.alertafa.nl Het thema nummer van Spanning, Wat Wilders Wil, is integraal te lezen op de website van de SP: www.sp.nl/nieuws/spanning/200802/

Dit artikel verscheen eerder in Grenzeloos#97, juni-juli 2008

‘Skin’: Nazi met een Joodse vader

De 17-jarige Frankie (Robert de Hoog) groeit eind jaren ’70 op in een achterstandsbuurt in Amsterdam waar zijn ouders een wasserette runnen. Simon (John Buijsman), de Joodse vader van Frankie, is overlevende van een concentratiekamp.

De oorlogstrauma’s van de in zichzelf gekeerde vader drukken als een zware last op het gezin. Frankie voelt zich onbegrepen door zijn vader. Omgekeerd heeft Simon het gevoel dat zijn zoon zijn trauma’s niet begrijpt. Wanneer de bindende factor van het gezin, moeder Anne (Sylvia Poorta), aan kanker overlijdt groeit de afstand tussen vader en zoon. Waar vader steun zoekt bij de locale Joodse gemeenschap zoekt zijn zoon dit elders. Frankie bezoekt punk concerten, vind vertier in vandalisme en vechtpartijen en sluit zich aan bij een groep skinheads. In het speelfilmdebuut ‘Skin’ van regisseur Hanro Smitsman wordt een herkenbaar beeld geschetst van een puber die zich afzet tegen zijn ouders en steun en erkenning vindt bij rebellerende leeftijdsgenoten. Dit begint onschuldig wanneer Frankie samen met zijn buurtvriend, de zwarte skinhead Jeffrey, op diens kamer danst op ska LP’s van Laurel Aitken. Na de dood van zijn moeder scheert Frankie zijn hoofd kaal en samen met Jeffrey bezoekt hij punk concerten. Al snel echter steken drugs en vechtpartijen de kop op. Het geweld wordt erger wanneer een groep nazi-skinheads de concerten bezoeken. Concerten lopen uit op geweld, punks en skinheads raken van elkaar verwijderd. Meer door toeval dan door keuze beland Frankie in het kamp van de racistische skinheads. Een van de meest sprekende scènes uit de film is wanneer Frankie samen met zijn vader Simon en oom Henk om de keukentafel zit. Frankie heeft zojuist gehoord dat zijn moeder is overleden. Drie mannen zitten samen eenzaam huilend in de keuken, niet in staat om hun verdriet met elkaar te delen of om steun bij elkaar te zoeken. Anders dan thuis voelt Frankie zich bij de skins niet eenzaam. Hier heeft hij het gevoel iemand te zijn. Het deel uitmaken van een groep voedt zijn zelfvertrouwen. Dat het nazi’s zijn lijkt alleen maar mooi meegenomen. Frankie haat zijn vader en zijn eeuwige verhalen over het kamp. De skins geven Frankie zijn eerste tatoeage, een doodshoofd met een swastika. Ook krijgt hij een mes voorzien van de nazie-inscriptie “Unsere Ehre heisst Treue”. In een vechtpartij tussen de nazi-skinheads en Molukse jongeren trekt Frankie onverwacht het mes en steekt een Molukker in zijn maag. De Molukker bloedt dood en Frankie wordt als enige gearresteerd en veroordeeld. Vader Simon raakt als ‘vader van de racist’ geïsoleerd in de Joodse gemeenschap en zoekt troost in drank. Onder druk van oom Henk bezoekt Simon zijn vader in de gevangenis. Na lang zwijgen pakken vader en zoon elkaars hand. ‘Jammer dat ik mijn hengel niet bij heb”, zegt Simon, “Anders konden we gaan vissen’. Maar amper is de ruzie tussen vader en zoon bijgelegd of Frankie wordt na een uit de hand gelopen ruzie in de bajes neergestoken. ‘Skin’ is gebaseerd op het waar gebeurde verhaal van de moord op Kerwin Duinmeijer in 1983. De 15-jarige dader, Nico Bodemeijer, was de zoon van een Joodse vader. Nico scheerde zijn kop kaal, liet ‘100% blank’ op zijn arm tatoeëren en sloot zich aan bij een groep racistische skinheads. De moord op de eveneens 15-jarige Kerwin was groot nieuws in Nederland en werd omschreven als de eerste racistische moord sinds de Tweede Wereldoorlog. Anders dan in de film lukte het Bodemeijer niet om na zijn celstraf weer in de samenleving terug te keren. Misschien omdat hij wenig andere opties zag bleef hij rondhangen in nazi-kringen en raakte hij bevriend met diverse kopstukken van onder meer de Centrum Democraten en het Aktiefront Nationaal-Socialisten. Ook werd Bodemeijer meerdere malen gesignaleerd bij de beruchte extreemrechtse schietvereniging Lisse. Hier deelde Bodemeijer de schietbaan met kamerleden van CD en oud-SS’ers. In 1989 werd Bodemeijer opnieuw gearresteerd voor een steekpartij; hij had ruzie gekregen met een voorbijganger die iets gezegd had over Nico’s T-shirt met de tekst ‘Het is fijn om blank te zijn’. Hoewel regisseur Hanro Smitsman zeker niet de intentie had om een politieke film te maken zet de film de kijker wel aan tot denken. De film laat op indringende wijze zien hoe een subcultuur als die van de nazi-skinheads kan groeien en wat de aantrekkingskracht hiervan is op jongeren. De vergelijking met hedendaagse ‘Lonsdale-jongeren’ is snel gemaakt. Ook is het een gedurfde zet om in een dergelijk bekend verhaal niet het slachtoffer, maar de dader als hoofdpersoon neer te zetten. Anders dan in een platte en simpele skinheadfilm als Romper Stomper schetst Skin een genuanceerd beeld van de slechterik, zijn persoon en de impact van zijn daden op zijn familie zijn tot hoofdlijnen van het verhaal gemaakt. ‘Skin’ draait sinds 13 maart in diverse filmtheaters en wordt op donderdag 8 mei om 20.30 uur uitgezonden op Nederland 3. Ijswater.nl Kerwin.nl

The Oppressed – Oi! Oi! Music!

In october 2005 The Oppressed was headlining a gig in Berlin. The gig was organised by Rash Berlin/ Brandenburg and was a benefit for the Antifascist Left Berlin (local AFA chapter). With 600 people in the place was crowded, almost overcrowded. Even though some snares broke and coppers tried to get in it was a brilliant gig with songs from eve ry period of the band. Half an hour before the gig i had the following chat with singer/guitar-player Roddy Moreno… A few weeks later The Oppressed played a gig in Frankfurt. later it turned out to be their last gig and this interview turned out to be their last interview.

About a year ago you said in an interview you reformed the band to get some financial payback and respect after all these years. Is the reunion satisfying in this way?
Oh yes, it’s fucking brilliant! Truth is we insisted to get back after all these years because they offered us 3000 pounds to play at the Punk & Disorderly Festival. That’s the only reason we got back together. But because we did got back together again we thought we can play some more gigs as well. We do these just for fun. We still get paid, but obviously we don’t get paid 3000 pounds anymore, we are just having a laugh now.

How many gigs have you done since the reunion and are there any worst or best gigs?
They all have been fucking excellent. We’ve been to Canada, Italy, France twice, Belgium, second time tonight in Germany. Every evening is like tonight. People are having a laugh, they’re having fun. It’s not like in the old days with the fucking fighting and rioting and shit. Now it’s just people having a good night out. It’s fucking brilliant! Obviously there have been highlights, i think every gig has it own highlights. We played in London twice, they were both brilliant. One was really sad, cause a friend of mine who played in a band died (Stig). We played a benefit concert for his kids. The gig was just billiant, although it’s a pity it was under that circumstances.

You planned a tour though Japan, but it got cancelled. Why was it cancelled?
I thought i could do it. We’ve been to Canada for two nights, i DJ’d one night and we played the gig the next night. I was so fucked after it i realised there’s no way i could do it that long. I’m just too fucking old. So now we just do one night gigs.  

Is that also the reason why the european tour with The Prowlers from Canada never took place?
Same thing. Plus i have some personal problems with my misses, so i don’t want to be away from home for too long.

Is there any difference in audiance when you play at a festival or when you’re headlining at a gig?
The festivals are ok, it’s nice to play for thousands of people. But it’s more enjoyable to play in smaller places, for like 500 people. There’s more intercourse, you’re closer to the audience, it’s more fun for us. A big festival is still fun, but it’s not as much fun as playing in smaller places. At festivals people don’t come to see you, they come see tons of other bands as well. When you play at smaller places and you’re headlining, the majority of people come to see you live. Obviously they also come to see the support band, but you know they come ’cause they especially want to see you. That makes me feel proud.

You started as a non-political Oi!-band with the usual lyrics about getting into a fight, soccer, etc. Very soon you started profiling yourself as an anti-fascist Oi!-band. Later on you imported Sharp to Europe and now you work together with redskin labels and you play at a redskin festival. Is this the next logical step and is The Oppressed getting more and more political?
We ain’t political, never have been. We’re anti political! The fascists are the political ones, so we’re fighting against them. They brought the politics in. Personally i can’t give a fuck about politics as long as it’s not right-wing nazi shit. If a man wants to be a communist or a socialist or whatever… I suppose we’re socialists basically. Just ordinairy working class people. If i want to fight someone i pick somebody who wants to fight with me. I’m not gonna pick out a poor immigrant kid. To me that’s just cowardish.  

At first we didn’t give a fuck about anything, but somebody siegheiled at us at a concert in 1982. So he got his head kicked in and we recorded the Work Together  EP with a black and a white skinhead on the cover just to make a point. But the bigger and bigger the white noise crowd got, the more we were against them. We don’t like how they piss on our culture. Basically they’re cowardly wankers who make us look bad. For instance today we came at Bristol airport, a copper stops us and says “we just check your passport lads”. He looks at me and with a wink he says “I don’t have to ask you your politics”. I said “What do you mean?”. He said “Fascists?” I replied “No, we’re fucking anti-fascists! We hate fucking fascists!” But he automatically assumed because we are skinheads we have to be fucking fascists. This is the reason we fought against it all the time, because we hate shit like that. We don’t say to people be communist, or be this or that. We’re always saying don’t be fucking cowardly fucking racist! Be a man and stand up for yourself. Don’t hide behind a gang of other wankers. If you can’t do it on your own, don’t do it at all. Basically we just don’t like the way they make us look. They make us look like the fucking scum they are. I don’t care if an ordinairy person thinks i’m a hooligan or whatever. But when they think i’m racist that’s one step beyond. Then it’s time to make a stand, and that’s all we did. All we did is saying “fuck fascism”.

Anti-fascism is one of the main pilers of The Oppressed. Recently there were some attacks in London, shortly after that Combat 18 and some nazi hooligans said they want to take revenge. Did this already start and how does it all influence the skinhead subculture?  
To me what they are doing is playing right into the terrorist hands. The terrorists want the racists to turn it on the black community, so the black community will be in opposition. It gives the terrorists encouragement, the nazis do the work for the terrorists by turning the black community against white people. The terrorists want to divide and have their side with them. The nazis are doing the same, they want to devide and have their side with them. We can see through the bullshit. For every terrorist there’s a million of nice people. There’re white catholic terrorists and christian fundamentalists and nobody seems to give a fuck about them. If a terrorists has a black skin he’s a threat to the whole world. If a terrorist has a white skin nobody talks about it. I think that’s racist. The first bombings in the USA where done by white americans and nobody said “fuck all of them” or “all white people are terrorists”. If a muslim blows up something everyone says “all muslims are terrorists”. I think you have to be feeble-minded to fall for that, but the nazis are feeble-minded. But there’re people who can watch though the bullshit and who fight against all this dividing. But, terrorism is terrorism, no matter who is doing it.

You participated in the documentary ‘Skinhead Attitude’. Did you see it yet?  
(laughter) I was good.
In this documentary Jimmy Pursey from Sham 69 said he can’t be angry when he sees some boneheads. All he does is laugh. His argument is they’re making a fool of their selves by being a bad copy of an original and good culture. Can you agree with this vision?
To me bonehads are threats. They’re not a threat to me, but they’re a threat if you’re a young asian boy. I never met Jimmy Pursey. I remember him seeing on telly, he said skinheads had to stop being skinheads because of all the nazis who got into it. But my attitude is to fight back against the nazis. To say let’s give it up and let them have it is fucking wrong to me. It’s my culture! I’m in it for over 35 years and i won’t let some nazi cunts take it over. Let’s talk about some new releases… The Oppressed participated in the ‘Skinhead Unity’ CD and you released a 7” on Insurgence. I also heard something about an upcoming DVD…
They filmed the gig in Canada and hopefully it will come out on DVD. I don’t know when, but the shit should come out.  

I also heard something about a split CD with The Prowlers…
What will probably happen with The Prowlers is that we’ll record one of their tracks and they’ll record on of our tracks. I think it will be included as bonus with the DVD when it comes out..

Are there any more plans for new releases?  
We got three new songs ready to record. We’re gonna do a split EP with Klasse Kriminale. We have three new songs for that. One is ‘Football Violence’, a typical Oi!-song. One is called ‘Remember’, to remember the people who died fighting fascism in WW2. The last one is ‘Low Life’ about a working class kid who never get any chances in life.

On the Insurgence 7” there’s a song in Spanish. Why is it, is it because there’s some Spanish blood in your family?  
Well, my mom is Spanish. It’s just an idea. Some guy wrote to me “you have to do some song in Spanish”. I send him some lyrics to translate and so he did. Someone else rewrote the translation literally, as i don’t speak spanish at all. In the USA there’re thousands and thousands of hispanic skinheads. It’s a thank you to them for being with us. Several times there were some threats against your gigs. I was in Belgium and there circulated a flyer by some nazi group who said they had plans to attack the gig. A few years ago there was the AFA benefit in London. Do you also get threats at home?
No. In the 24 years we’ ve been together all i ever got at home is one phonecall and one letter. Both were anonymous.  
About the gigs… They threaten, but they don’t do anything. I think we’re lucky, because we’re going so long we got a name. If we do play loads and loads of our side turn up. As you know, if the nazi’s think there’ll be opposition they don’t turn up. If we were a new band nobody heard about they might turn up. But because we’re a big anti-fascist band with a big anti-fascist following they’re too scared to come along. Which is fucking great, because it means everyone can have fun at our gigs.

The Movement – Clean living under difficult circumstances

At a thursday evening in september 2005 three well dressed guys from Denmark, aka The Movement, play in Holland. Heavely influenced by early The Jam they blow a refreshing wind over the punk scene. The evening was the kick-off for a three-week tour through Europe to promote their last album ‘Revolutionary Sympathies’. Although their drummer joined the band only six weeks before and the singer had the flu they played tight as hell. During almost one hour the band treated the audiance with hard mod or aggropop mixed with soul, punk and working class lyrics. After the gig i met Lukas Scherfig (guitar/vocals), a not so talkative, but friendly person… We talked about playing in a band, subcultures and politics.

To start with a few boring questions… The usual one, can you shortly describe the band’s history?
We are around since 2000. I started the band. In the beginning we had another drummer (Stefan Andersen, ed), but he got sick and collapsed on stage. Now we have a new drummer, Sir, he’s completely new. I started the band because i wanted to make a band like this, that was inspired by The Jam and that kind of stuff, but also by soul. You were in another band before (The Roosters), what’s the difference between them? Is it only musically or also lyric-wise?
I’ve been in some other bands before, mostly rock’n'roll. I lived in London for one year where i played in some bands as well. Then i decided i want to make my own band where i could write the lyrics, and be the singer and play guitar.

You have a new drummer, what is his past and in which bands did he played before?
I didn’t know him before, so i don’t exactly know. He’s been in the USA for five years at a drum school. But he couldn’t get a work permission. So he had to get out of the country, and he came back… He did that a few times ’till he decided he want to go back home again, to Copenhagen. When we needed a drummer, he saw that, he phoned us and now he is in the band. He is with us for only one and a half month yet. We just went on tour with The Slackers and now we have our own tour. We get back home at the end of october. We have some weekend shows planned and then we’ll write some new stuff and rehearse with our new drummer. I think we’ll record a few demo’s for a new album.
That’s pretty fast…
There’re two years in between the first and the second album. Those two albums created lots of groundwork for us, especially in Germany. We play a lot there and lots of people show up. I think it will be good if the next album will be released one year after our second album.  

Your last album, Revolutionairy Sympathies, is less punk orientated, a bit slower and you also kicked out the ska influences. Does this influence your audience?
I think so. Especially in Germany. All the punks still come to the shows, but i can see there’re more ‘normal’ people coming to our shows. That’s good, because we don’t want to be a subcultural band. We still want to be a political band, but we want to bring the political stuff into a more mainstream audience. Otherwise it’s just preaching for the converted, which is still a good party of course. I think it will be better to be more mainstream, without losing our roots. With mainstream i don’t mean more commercial, but reaching a wider audience with our politics. That’s also why we don’t identify ourself as being a punkband. We want to grow bigger than just the punk scene. Playing both in squats and clubs, we like to mix things.
The last album is also half political and half love songs. I like to mix that. We are a political band, but not only a political band. Sometimes political bands can’t sing about love. Sometimes bands who only do love songs can’t sing about society, while i see it as one thing. You can have a close releationship with your girlfriend or whoever, but there’s a society around it. Both things are very important to our lives so it should be mixed.

I read a few reviews of your last album in non-political magazines. They wrote “The Movement are a radical left-wing band, but not in a preaching way”. Is that why your last album has exactly the same amount of both political and love songs?
That’s only on our last album. The political songs are for the ‘love’ people and the love songs are for the political people. We want to motivate political people to listen more to love songs. We also want to change their environment. There’re normal people with a normal job, who are anti-facist, but who can’t identify theirselves with the antifascist movement. Simply because it’s too punk and everyone wears black clothes. So they don’t go to the demonstrations, even though they are anti-fascist. Our goal is to make the anti-fascist movement more open to everybody. Otherwise the political movement is just a subculture and then it doesn’t make any sense.
Ofcourse we’re not preaching. We aren’t a movement. That’s why we say we support everybody who’s on the left-wing. Even people i personally don’t sympathyse with. We play for anarchists, socialists and communists. In these times we can’t just support one strong party. If there’re some anarchists in Germany who do something against racism, then we come to support them. If there’re communists who do something political or whatever, then we come to play there. The problem on the left-wing is there’re so many fractions: if you don’t agree with a party, you make another party… That’s a stupid thing of the left-wing. It makes so many fractions and we don’t want to be part of that game. Ofcourse we have our own political ideas, but i can also support somebody i don’t completely agree with. If they can reach more people that’s ok, and hopefully in the end it all comes together.                        

For your last album you made a video for the song ‘A Little Less Rain’. Did you get any airplay yet?
Yeah. I think about eight or nine TV-stations are playing it. They are just small stations, like Viva, which is some small station in Germany. Also the music channel plays it once in a while. But it’s very low-budget. I’d like to make a video with a bigger budget, because there’re lots of stations who don’t want to airplay our video because it’s so low-budget. There’s also a video on the Revolutionairy Sympathies album. If you put the CD in your computer there’s an old video of the song ‘Losing You’.

Do you have plans for a new video?
Yes, that’s one of the reasons why we want to change our recordlabel. We want a label which has a little more money. We played so many shows and we build up everything from nothing. Like for example this tour. If they spent a little more money on it, it was much easier for us. It took us two years to be where we’re now, while with some more money it could have been one year.
                    
You get mainly positive reviews and you’re always on the road with the band. Is it already possible to make a living out of the band?
Yes, but not a good living. Right now we’re on tour for 24 days. It’s difficult to have a job when you can’t come. Normally we play every wednesday till saturday. When we’re on the road we don’t use any money cause we get food, a place to sleep and the next day we drive on to the next gig. So we live from the band, but not that good. But it’s the only way. Otherwise we have to spend lots of time on working while we all want be musicians.

With the combination of pop inspired punk music- or modpunk, aggropop, whatever you want to call it- and political lyrics you can easily be compared to bands as Chumbawamba or The Blaggers. Do you see yourself in that position?
Yeah, i hope so. If we don’t lose the political part. I know there’re lots of people in the punk scene -especially young people- who have problems with it. If you’re against capitalism where can you play and what can you do and still don’t be a part of it? As i see it, just like an old saying, if you want to stop a boss you have to go with him for a while. That’s exactly what we try to do.
Besides we want to combine the political thing with a good party. Having a good time with the political things. Politics should be fun.

This seem to be very important to you. Is this is a way to criticise the left-wing movement? To say there’s too little humour in the left-wing movement?
I think so. But it’s also not enough to make some posters and to be there with just a few people. If the left-wing wants to survive it needs to grow away from the hippie-stuff. In the 60ies it was fashionable to be a hippie and that was good, but no things are changing, the fashion is changing. You have to change the style, cause the style is only the packing. That’s what this mod-thing is about, about modernisn, being modern and not being conservative about a style. Lots of punks think it says something when you look like a punk, but it doesn’t say what’s inside. It just a fashion and it doesn’t change anything. The message inside, that’s important. If you want to reach other people then you can’t wait until everyone dresses like a punk. It’s about the structure of this society, not about a subculture.  Dit interview verscheen eerder in Smashed Images#3, november 2005

Attila The Stockbroker

On a Sunday evening in June 2003, the English poet Attila The Stockbroker visited our place with his punkband Barnstormer. In the afternoon Attila had already done a 90 minute solo gig at a communist festival in Germany. As this was also the last day of the tour all members were quite tired. In between dinner, soundcheck and the gig there was some time left for a small chat with Attila, a 45-year old punk who’s still wearing his Lenin-pin with pride.

To those who don’t know you, can you briefly introduce yourself?
I’m Attila the Stockbroker. My living is being a poet and songwriter since 1981. I started in the punk scene, right at the beginning of punk. I played bass-guitar in some punk bands back then. From 1980 i decided it would be interesting to get on stage on my own, to do poetry. That went quite well and from 1982 i’ve been travelling around all over the world to do my poetry and play songs on the mandolin. I’ve done about 15 albums, four books and all kinds of compilation stuff.  
In 1994 i formed my band Barnstormer to play my songs. Since then the band sometimes plays in Mainland-Europe, but with the band i mostly play in the UK and i do more solo-gigs here. So mainly i’m a poet and songwriter with a punkrock band that also has a strange mediaeval tongue to it.  

How did you get involved in this whole punk thing and how has it influenced your life?
Actually i’m gonna do a song tonight about this called ‘Commadante Joe’, because what really inspired me was the Clash. I mean, the punk thing means many different things. But to react to the things you wrote in your booklet (he’s referring to the programme-leaflet of the squat where there’s quoted something he said about Sex Pistol’s “Anarchy in the UK”). What i actually said about chess was this; if instead of singing “i’m an anti-christ, i’m an anarchist” Johnny Rotten had said, “i’m a chess player” there would probably loads of punks with chessboards on their back. I’m not an anarchist, but i have many friends who are and i have lots of sympathy with anarchism. But what i meant by that is that anarchism is supposed to be about thinking for yourself and not just putting an ‘A’ in a circle on your jacket, because you think that’s what punkrock is about.
But to answer your question, before punk i was interested in different kinds of music. I love the stuff of MC5, Velvet Underground and Mott the Hoople. I also loved some strange style of crowd rock. Punk was just an extension of the stuff i was listening to, it was not suddenly. The great thing about punk was the politics and the idea that everyone could get up on stage and start performing. That was the main message that got through to me, instead of “that’s the band and that’s the audience”.
I always was a musician, i played bass guitar in the late ‘70s. Then i realised that just playing the bass was not what i wanted to do, so i started with the poetry and make songs myself on the mandolin.
Punk has been a huge inspiration to me. When i saw the Clash it was everything i wanted with music; it was politics and culture coming together, that’s just amazing! That was in 1977 and it inspired me to do what i’m doing now. I like all kinds of music and the main thing i like are lyrics and the words. I like people who’ve got something to say, who’re different and critically about the world we’re living in, whatever sort of music it may be. One of my favourite songwriters/musicians of all time is the Belgian songwriter Jacques Brel, for exactly the same reason. ‘Cause in a completely different way he was as critical about the society he lived in as the Clash or the Sex Pistols were. So i like all sorts of stuff, but punk inspired me absolutely. You are 45 right now, did you ever think about just quitting playing and all the uncertainty that comes with it?
That’s a very funny question. It’s an interesting thing that rock music is connected with being young, while nobody ever says to a painter or someone who’s playing the violin in an orchestra “you’re 40, so you’re not going to do that anymore”. Anyway, I have a wife and four children. I always made this quite clear to everyone who puts me on or organises gigs, that this is my living. In fact I’m very proud that it is my living. I’m a socialist, so I don’t expect to earn a huge load of money and I don’t want more than in need to support my family.
 It’s an interesting thing that for some people in the scene playing in a band is supposed to be something you don’t do to earn any money and if you do, you are a capitalist or whatever. I think that’s just completely stupid. I have always been and will always be independent. I will always earn my living doing this and I have no desire to work for a capitalist boss, or to be involved in the system in any way. I won’t compromise to that under any circumstances. I’m in the fortunate position that I have a good following all over the place and without compromising I can do everything I want. I’m my own organiser, my own agent, and my own manager. I publish all my books, my CD’s… I’m not involved in any kind of commercial business or corporation. I do everything myself, so the only person I have to relay on is me, and I think it works. It works out really well. I’ll never stop performing unless I die. I hope I’ll die on stage, hopefully when I’m 85 or something but I never gonna stop. It’s not an ego thing, what I love is the fact that I have the opportunity to express my ideas and talk to people about things that are important to me and the world in general. What do you like to say to the people who say you’re selling out because you make a living out of your music and poetry?
I think they’re absolutely idiots and i’ll go even further than that; everybody who says that is probably from a very wealthy privileged family with a mother and a father who have plenty of money, so that they can play punk for a couple of years and then go working for a boss or something. Very few people say it to me, and it can only be said by people who have no experience of life and what life means. No-one would ever say to a plumber or a carpenter “you’re selling out because you earn your money being a plumber or carpenter”, so why saying it to a musician? It’s ridiculous, completely ridiculous to say you don’t want any money… In my view it’s far more selling out to play in a band and charge one cent to get into the concert and than spend the rest of your week working for a capitalist to earn your living, than the way i do, which is to say “this is how i earn myself a living and i’m very proud of that”, that always works anyhow. I know that tonight we don’t get very much money for this gig, but that’s fine, because it’s a good place and what you do is very good. Equally, some of the other gigs we got us some really good money, so in the end it all works out. It means i can do both. But the idea that earning yourself a living means you’re selling out is babyish, it’s spread by kids with rich parents. Why do you play renaissance-core? Has it anything to do with the romantic idea of being a wandering minstrel or does this period inspire you?
It’s simply because i like the music. It’s something inside of me, i don’t know why, which always responded to the sound of that particular type of music. It’s nothing more or less than that. I guess it’s the same reason why Shane MacGowan formed The Pogues; to play a mixture of Irish music and punk. I did exactly the same with Barnstormer, because i like middle-age music. I don’t know anyone else who did it before. I knew what kind of music i wanted to play and i didn’t know if it would work out well, but it does. It sounds strange, but the people really enjoy it. When i read your website i get the impression you’re on tour for five months of the year. What are the things you hate and like most about being on tour?
There’s nothing i hate about being on tour, but i miss my wife very much. Something i never forget is the reason why she has to stay at home and look after the kids and everything  is because i’m on tour. Quite a traditional division of labour. I don’t like that partically, but she comes with me as much as possible. 
There’s nothing i don’t like about being on tour. I really love performing, i love talking to people; i speak french and german, i love foreign languages and i love communicating with people. The band is just great, we’re all really good friends and we enjoy the music we play, so i live it. The only thing i don’t like about touring is that our drummer’s farts are terrible, that’s the only thing i can think of.
(Laughter) and the vegan food…
No, i like it, although i make jokes about it. I think very much for myself and i surely respect people who are vegan or vegetarian. Equally i expect them to respect the fact i’m not. I don’t like the idea that some people seem to have; that if you’re on the left and if you’re a radical, anti-capitalist or whatever that it means you must be a vegetarian. I can tell anybody who thinks that, that for hundreds of years there’s been class struggle and battles in between oppressors and oppressed. The idea of vegetarianism is an idea that can only exists in an advanced society where people have enough to eat in the first place. I have absolutely nothing but respect for people who are vegetarian. For sure it’s a healthy way to live, but i think it’s a personal choice, which got nothing to do with a political obligation. Equally i’m totally opposed to factory farming and the methods that are used to breed animals for human consumption. I think that’s wrong, but no, i’m not a vegetarian.

Once you wrote in our email correspondence that you consider yourself to be a communist, what does communism mean to you, as there’re many explanations of it?
Well, i performed many times in de DDR before the wall came down, and if i was born in the east-german system i would have been about 65% in favour and 35% against what happened there. I wasn’t somebody who said it was all shit. I was believed that what happened in East-Germany was basically a progressive thing, which needed to be changed, developed and made far more democratic. It should have been organised far more from the bottom that the top. I don’t think it was good that the entire system collapsed and i don’t think it was good the Berlin wall came down the way it did. Because all that happened was that capitalism became a tribulation. The end of all this shit is what we see in Iraq or anywhere else. I think the existence of the sowjet-union and the eastern-block countries was a good thing, although what went on there was certainly not all good. 
But i’m certainly a communist in the tradition of Marx and Lenin. I have strong links to the DKP, the German Communist Party. We just have performed at a festival for them, i guess if i was german i would be a member of it. They’re quite a mainstream communist party with a good strong left tradition that some others don’t have. Like the French PCH, it becomes a complete joke, while the Germans have just been recast. The festival where we just played was in a park in Dortmund with 100.000 people coming, it’s fantastic, it really is. That’s better than Holland. After the 11th september and the 6th of may last year when Pim Fortuyn got shot, a strong anti-left feeling was based in society…
Oh well. Pim Fortuyn, he’s a strange guy, I mean, a gay nazi?! Ok, there were lots of those, but it seems very strange for me.

During the recent war on Iraq, a quite impressive and massive anti-war movement was born. Were you surprised by the amount of people demonstrating?
No, i wasn’t. I think people have been looking for some time for a vehicle to express their feelings about what the Blair government is doing. Because after all those years of Thatcher and Tory governments since 1976, people were so desperate for anything, that when Blair and Labour came in they thought “at least we got rid of Thatcher”. But when Blair got into power, it was basically the same kind of thing as Thatcher would do, but with a different name on it. People started to get really angry about this particular decision by these stainless politicians to go along with Blair and Bush. That was something that everybody made really, really, really angry! I’m not surprised because also after a period of great apathy among young people, there’s a complete new generation of, not political aware, but political developing youth in the UK. That’s certainly a good development. The kids in between 9 and 16 in the UK are massively into punkrock. My 15-year old son has a punk band, you have two generations of punkrock and that’s fantastic. A lot of kids are getting interested in politics again which is brilliant, because the UK has been very depoliticised these recent years compared to Germany, France, or whatever. I always said that the UK and Holland are quite similar in terms of the lack of an obvious real hard political organisation, certainly since the last war on Iraq, some things have developed and are moving forward. There’s definitely more awareness and interest in politics and more desire opposed to what’s going on. Recently an important Dutch social-democratic magazine called Vrij Nederland (Free Holland, started as an illegal paper during WW2) proclaimed that Blair is the true hero of the left in Europe… is he?
Well, for fucks sake! Anyone who says that is as much as an idiot as the people who say it’s selling out to make a living out of your music. Blair is holding contempt. I have a song which we will play tonight about this…
I always voted for labour, but i’ll never vote for them again. We have a big problem in England with the electoral system. Unlike in Holland or most of the countries in Europe there’s the single vote system, which means that the person with the most votes get elected in the constituency. This makes it very difficult for small minority parties to get any form of support, because the argument always is, “if we vote for a left party and not for Labour, it splits the vote and make the Tories come in. That has always been the argument. My response to it now is that it doesn’t matter. Almost i would say it’s even better to have the Tories in , because than there is less confusion among the left and among the trade unions about what’s happening.
That’s exactly the same in Germany. There’s a big Schröder announce. Schröder and Clemon are starting this massive programme which causes the destruction of the welfare system. Because it’s a social democratic government in power they’re actually able to do more things against the trade unions, than when there’s a CSU/CDU (right-wing/christian-conservatives) government in power, ‘cause then the trade unions don’t have any illusions.
There’re people in the metal line who say “we won’t vote against our government” and i respond by asking how Schröder can be their government when he’s actually making hundreds of thousands of people jobless and destroying the credit payments for the health insurance. What they’re doing is just ridiculous.
So in one sentence it’s actually better to have the right-wing Christian democrats in power, then people won’t be confused about it. Unfortunately lots of trade unionists and probably some workers think that with Labour elected it got to be better. What this moment proves is that’s just shit, it isn’t better at all. Old Teenagers is a song about apathy among the teenagers of the UK. It could have been any other country in western Europe. How do you see the future? Do you think there will be next generations taking over?
Although it’s a great song, i’m not doing it all the time anymore. Preciously because there’s certainly in terms of music and subculture an absolutely new development. This isn’t within the students, this is much younger, i’m talking about nine and ten years old who are getting bands together. It’s incredible. Some of the bands  with an age around 11 or 12 are actually quite good. They got t-shirts with “Fuck Blair” and all that stuff. Ok, at this moment it’s obviously a simple kind of shock thing, but at least they’re thinking and doing something, instead of all the techno shit that’s going on.
The students are still very apathetic in England, but that’s really a student thing. When i was at university i got a grant, i couldn’t have gone to the university if i didn’t had a grant. These days the students don’t get a grant anymore, they get loans and nobody protests about it. When we were at the university and if they tried to raise the price of the sandwiches in the canteen we occupied the registry for a week until they said they were not going to do that anymore. Also that shitty music, like Coldplay, that’s what students are listening to and it’s fucking awful.
The funniest thing about this is the feeling when you’re young you are radical and wild and when you’re old you should become a vegetable and watch the television. For my wife and me it’s exactly the opposite. We’re actually far more radical than a lot of people who are 25 years younger. Lots of friends of our kids look at us in astonishment. What they want is to play golf, or a nice suit. In some countries there’re many skinheads among the audience of your gigs and in Germany you release your stuff on the left skinhead label ‘Mad Butcher’. How does it get along in the audience?
Oh yes, i mean, they’re skinheads, not boneheads, that’s the point. Nazi boneheads have attacked me on stage for three times over the last 20 years…
In the UK?
Yes. I can look after myself. I’m not frightened of idiots like that. The people that come to our gigs are the people who agree with the politics, obviously the idiots won’t come.
There was a time during the beginning of the ‘80s when we used to have problems at gigs with fascists who caused trouble. Not just with mine gigs, but with all kind of gigs. But Anti-Fascist Action (AFA) got them out completely. They got put in hospitals enough times, so they stopped coming. In England the British National Party (BNP) has now stopped trying to be a street fighting party, they try to pretend they are respectable, they even wear suits now.
The reason why it happened is quite simple. In the early 1980’s when the Oi! Thing was big in England, i put some songs on Oi! Compilations, ‘cause i wanted to reach the people who were being influenced by fascist ideas. I never thought it was enough for me as a poet or musician to talk to the people who agree with me anyway. I wanted to get through and tried to reach people involved in that subculture. I’m a sort of skinhead as well, i like the music and in the 80’s i also was a skinhead. I got lots of friends who are skinheads. I think it’s very important to know that the most effective opposition to boneheads comes from skinheads, who were so pissed of about these assholes. In the media i often read that a bunch of skinheads beat up a black person, and i always say these are no skinheads, these are boneheads! Lastly, I heard you work at a soccerclub. Why is soccer so special for you?
(laughter) I’m the poet in residence, the PA announcer and the DJ at Brighton, my local club. You should look at the website, it explains everything, but basically i’m a supporter of Brighton since i was seven, so that’s 38 years ‘till now.
In 1997 our club  was taken over by an asshole called Bill Larger, a property speculator. He sold the ground of the club, for two years we had to play our home matches about 100 kilometres away. We, the fans, organised a massive protest about what was going on. Actually it was one of the most effective grass roots working class protests there has been in England for a long time. Everybody around the country knew what we, Brighton fans, were doing. We demonstrated in London, we invited ourselves at the house where the bastards lives and told him to piss of. But it all went in a quite peaceful way, we didn’t got any bad publicity… We organised a national boycott against the company he was the chairman of. What happened was that politics overlapped culture. The fact that i love football was overlapped by the fact that this capitalist asshole, was destroying the team of the club that i love.  So all these things came together and i became the leader of the Brighton fans who were opposing all this shit.
The good thing about that was that many of our fans got interested in politics. Some of them are quite right-wing, racist, sexist and sort like tendencies, but they learned from this fight to save the football club that capitalism fucks things up. I mean, how did the guy got involved? Only because he got hold on the shares from an alcoholic, the former chairman, so he could easily close the club down. Lot of ordinary Brighton fans learned a lot about capitalism from that particular experience and it changed quite a lot people’s view.
I’m a big St.Pauli fan too. Probably you know something about St.Pauli? They have 70.000 fans and most of them are anti-fascist. They have a really good political subculture. Football is a great way of reaching people, the same way as Oi!.
It will never be enough for me, just to be a nice poet, do nice gigs, etc. The thing for me always was to get out and talk to ordinary people and to get out on the street. It may sound like a cliché, but it’s true, not in a false kind of way, but it’s where i belong. It’s just me and how i am. I’m not a prestigious arty sort of person. All i want is having a laugh, having a beer and doing my poems and songs. It fits in really well. I mean, i do poetry before the home games of Brighton and a lot of people listen to it. Of course, some people think “oh, fucking poetry”, but most of them accept it, ‘cause they know i was really involved in the fight to save the club. But lots of people like it anyway and that’s good. Ok, that’s it for now. Do you have any closing comments?
Well yes. With Barnstormer we like to do more gigs in Holland and maybe we do a tour just in Holland at the end of this year. I enjoy playing here, i like the fact that people have such a good command of english that i actually can get my words across. I speak german, so i’m doing Germany in a different way. But anyway, we’re looking for more gigs at the end of this year, so if anyone is interested, get in touch.

Dit interview verscheen eerder in Smashed Images#3, november 2005

Atarassiagröp – streetmusic

Atarassiagröp started back in 1993 with the intention of playing street music which could be the base for lyrics on social issues that got often ignored by the media. Their sound is a mixture of different tendencies: hardcore, punk rock, ska, oi!, reggae, dub.The lyrics are composed in Italian and other languages to create a multiethnic atmosphere. The band has played over 250 gigs in many different in Italy and other countries. They got picked up by various radio stations, magazines and fanzines. In summer 2002 Atarassiagröp won the Popular Jury Award at the Amnesty International festival in Rovigo. In december 2005 the band released their newest album: ‘Non Si Può Fermare Il Vento’. All questions were answered by Marco.

Can you shortly introduce the band and the bandmembers?
Atarassia Grop is a group of friends, who found a great way to stay together and to have fun. In the beginning the main goal was just having lots of fun (and we had it, ah we had it!). That attitude is still well alive, but now we mixed it with a very strong willingness to express our deepest beliefs troughout music.

Recenly you released your new CD. This is about three years after your previous release. Why did it take so long? Are you such a slow or such a critical songwriters?
Those three years where quite hard. We had a lot of gigs in Italy and Europe. Besides many things changed in our personal lives. Just to name the biggest one, Ivan our lead guitarist, who played with us from the very beginning (in 1993), left the band. Although we knew this before we went into the studio, we choose to record our new CD with him. At the same time we rehearsed these songs for the live shows with only one guitar. It was not easy, but it was very important for us to record this CD togheter. By the way… we are very happy with the result! Furthermore, we took much more care in writing the songs (and especially the lyrics) than in the previous albums: Filippo outperformed himself this time!

Although you have a streetpunk background, your music is heavily influenced by melodic punkrock, ska and reggea. On your latest album cello takes a prominent place in your sound. What sort of audiance do you attract?
We see a lot of different kind of people standing in front us when we play, and I think this is a good thing. We see punks togheter with skins and mods, teen agers togheter with 30 or 40 years old guys… I cannot describe the ‘standard’ Atarassia supporter. The kids that follow us are as different as the songs we play on the stage. With the last two album however (and especially with the last one), the average age of our fans has raised, so now we don’t have to feel too old when we play!

In the summer of 2002 you have won an award at the Amnesty International festival in Rovigo (ita). This sounds like an prestigious price. How did you end up playing there?
They simply heard our stuff and they called us, it was that simple! It was very surprising, even for us. Not only for the importance of the festival itself, but also for the level of the other bands involved: It were all very good bands and really excellent musicians! In that situation we were able to cummunicate our feelings with our tones and our voices and we were amazed by the positive reaction and feeling around us… it was really great, and we are still very proud of it!

For your latest album you wrote a song about the Genoa riots in Italy. Every time people speak of the Genoa riots, they speak of the tragic death of Carlo Giuliani. But how did the Italian movement continued after the Genoa riots, and how did this massive attention influenced the Italian movement?
I believe this focus on the Italian movement can be hardly seen in Italy: we have a very different focus point on the events of Genova compared to the rest of Europe. I think this is an inevitable consequence of being influenced by the strong relations between italian movement, politic and territory.
However there are facts that cannot be ignored. Take as an example the European Social Forum in Florence: we saw a massive participation from a lot of people from every corner of Europe and from a lot of countries in the rest of the world, Everything was organised wonderful. Would it be the same without the facts in Genova? I don’t think so. So maybe the increased attention on the Italian movement triggered an equal increase within the Italian movements sense of responsability and awareness. But it is only my opinion.

When i speak Italian activists or when i read about the movement in Italy i notice such a difference compared to Holland, Belgium or Germany. The movement in Italy seems so much more militant in its actions, no matter if it are unions, anti-militarist groups or antifa groups. What might be the reason for this massive difference in political culture?
Well, the reason is maybe twofolded. The first (and simple) one is the typical Italian way of doing things: we often are very passionate about what we do.
The second, and probably most important one, has to do with our history: when the fascist regime fell, there wasn’t such a complete reorganization as there was in Germany. A lot of people with important roles during Mussolini’s government were somehow forgiven, to help with the reconstruction of a reunified nation.
Well, since then, a lot of the italian internal troubles came from this never resolved problem: even now (60 years later!!) we speak about ‘shared memory’ as a big italian problem! Maybe it’s not the only cause, but I think it is one of the most important.

Ok, about the elections. The ‘left block’ has won the elections. What do you expect from it?
I really don’t know what I can expect. The situation is still very difficult and confused. One thing is for sure: we all could take a deep breath when we knew that the actual government has lost!

Not the most original question, but what does your band name mean? My Italian is shit and the freetranslation websites didn’t help me further as well.
Atarassia comes from the ancient Greece philosophy. It was the very first name of the band and it means something like “without any pain or joy, absence of emotional passions”, but I think it cannot describe the bands current attitude at all! Grop has a funny story behind it: a friend of ours wanted to make us a surprise and he made us some stickers with the name “Atarassia Grop” printed on. He wanted to write “group” but he made a mistake! We kept it like that, because in Como dialect (Como is the place where we live) “grop” means “knot” and it better represents the way we see ourselves than “group”. Filippo from your band wrote a song for the latest Los Fastidious album. Are there any other plans for future cooperation?
Not now, but I won’t be surprised to see something else in the near future. The song Filippo wrote is not the first cooperation between Atarassia Gröp and Los Fastidios: Enrico sang in the last 2 Atarassia CDs.
The cooperation between our bands is a straightforward consequence of the good feeling and frienship that exists beetween us as persons. We consider Lumpen (great band from Cosenza) and Los Fastidios as our brothers, and every time we play togheter it’s great party time! Do you have any closing comments?
Thanks for the time, and keep up with your great work! United we shout stronger!!
Ciao, alla prossima!

Dit interview verscheen eerder in december 2006 op de website www.smashedimages.net.

Antillectual – punkrock

Inspired by the melodic punk wave of the nineties, the Dutch Antillectual kicks off in September 2000. Their first show takes place in January 2001. After two demo’s and tours all over Europe and the USA they released their first CD in february 2005. They make music in the vein of Propagandhi, Strike Anywhere & Rise Against; political lyrics on melodic punk. In Holland they build up the reputation to be the band who played the most benefit gigs. On a quiet sundayafternoon the three boys of Antillectual and i had the following conversation in my living room…
In the summer of 2006 a structural lack of time made drummer Bob decide to leave the band. He got replaced by Riekus.

Can you shortly introduce the band and the members?
Yvo: My name is Yvo and i play bass and i also scream.
Bob: My name is Bob and i play drums.
Willem: My name is Willem. I play guitar and do the vocals. We are a band from Nijmegen. We exist since 2000 and just released a CD.
Bob: Buy it! (laughter)

Although you’re all original band members, there were some line up changes. How has this influenced the band?
Yvo: At the very beginning Bob wasn’t yet part of Antillectual, but that doens’t really matter. In the early years i played guitar in the band and Pieter from the band Last To Go played bass. We already knew this was temporary as Pieter was also involved in Last To Go and he was busy with his study. When we started doing more gigs he left the band, just after we recorded our first demo. Then Falco, Bob’s brother, joined us. He was part of the band for about a year. After recording our second demo he quit as well, because we started doing more gigs and Antillectual isn’t the music he likes best. Also it was difficult for him to combine the band with the other things he did…
Willem: …and because we expected that it would be better for the band to be with the three of us.
Yvo: Yes, that’s true. When it comes to our ideas… The three of us were all very motivated for the band while Falco just did his thing. He played his bass parts very good, but that’s it. Then we decided i had to play bass guitar. The result is that for us as musicians the band became less complex. I think since then the music sounds more unified.
Willem: And everything is much easier to organise with three people. It may sound silly, but it really is that way.
Yvo: You only have to call two other people when you organise a gig.

Recently you released your debut CD. How are the reactions so far?
Willem: Positive! Personally i mainly recieved positive reactions, but the magazines are also positive…
Like the Aardschok? (dutch metal megazine who wrote a whining negative review)
Willem: …Exactly, like in the Aardschok! (laughter) Of course there are people who are less positive, but ‘til now the review in the Aardschok is the only one with a negative content.
Yvo: Personnaly i’m really overwhelmed. Of course i’m satisfied with the CD, but the reactions we received go way further than i expected.

You recorded the CD at the now famous Bunts studio in Holland where other bands like Sin Dios, Manliftingbanner, Discipline (there’s some laughter when i mention the last name) and Beans recorded stuff. What was it like to record there? Is there much difference with the studios where you recorded before?
Willem: Earlier we recorded a demo at the Jacobiberg in Arnhem. For us it was the first time we entered the studio. This considered it was reasonable, but it isn’t representative anymore. Our second demo was recorded in Hilversum at the schoolingcentre for musictechnology where a friend of us studied. This time we decided to record something at an ‘official’ studio. Because everything Menno (Bakker. Ed) has recorded sounds really good we choose for the Bunts Studio.
Bob: He’s really into this kind of  music. There’re other studio’s who just don’t understand this whole punk thing.
Willem Menno has a good ear for our music, a positive contribution and when necesarry he knows how to motivate you to rerecord some parts

Last year you did several tours through the USA and Europe. Can you tell a bit more about it? How did the audience react?
Bob: Oh well, we truly enjoyed it. And about difference in audience… I think there isn’t that much of a difference. Of course there’re some small differences, like language problems, although i don’t have any problems with it. It are mainly other people in the band who have problems with that. (laughter) Being on tour is really great. It feels a bit like being on a school trip togethe. During the evenings you play, which –of course- is the coolest part of being on tour.
Willem: I don’t see much difference inbetween people in the different countries. But if you have a look at for example the USA you’ll see the scene is totally different from over here. There’s no subsidised clubcircuit like in Europe, so it’s really important that people over there organise their own gigs. These gigs take place at homes, hay-lofts and so on. Every possible place that can be used for gigs, is used for gigs. Another difference is that most gigs don’t work with entrance, but with free donations because of juridical hassle. It has its pro’s and againsts…. For example the sounds isn’t always the way it should be. When we play in a cellar our songs sounded indefinable.
Yvo: But to talk about Europe. What i noticed is that compared to other european countries the scene in Holland is way more into parochialism. In other countries we often play with completely different bands, which according to me is very positive. In Holland this won’t happen so soon.

If you compare a gig in a cellar in the USA with a gig in a youthcentre in Holland, do you notice a difference in enthusiasm?
Willem: Yes, but maybe this is because people in the USA are more positive-minded than people in Europe…
Yvo:If you look at Holland… almost all touring bands play in Holland. I think people in Holland are spoiled compared to the USA. On tour over there we met some really naive people who never met someone from outside the USA. Quite hilarious.

Antillectual has the reputation to be a political band. What’s more important to you? The words or the music?
Willem: I think we all have a different view on this. I can imagine I’ll play in a non-political band which plays this kind of music, but I’ll never play in some crust band with political lyrics. When I listen to music I prefer the more political bands, but for me the musical aspect is a bit more important.
Bob: Not all the bands I listen to are political (laughter). To me the music is very important as well. Usually when we write new songs, it starts with the music. Most of the time Willem and Yvo already wrote some lyrics, so I read the lyrics when the song is almost finished. Of course I agree that it’s important to have a say, but if the music sucks it just doesn’t work out.
Yvo: Personally I don’t think you can choose. It isn’t this or that, but for me it’s both. We never made the decision to be a punk band nor did we make the decision to be a political band. We just started and here’s the result. During the last years we build up a reputation of being a political band. Personally the message we spread is really important to me, but so is the music.

In songs as ‘Yes, I’m truly naïve’ and ‘No government needed’ you sing about dreams for a better future and massive resistance. What motivates you to go on, since things aren’t getting better at all. Holland has the most right-wing government since the end of WWII, the anti-war movement has almost silenced, the union bosses killed last years workers’ resistance…
Willem: You already name the arguments…
Yvo: Politics have disappeared from punk, so that is the motivation to go on. Like we just said, we never choose to make the music we do or write the lyrics we sing. We just play melodic punkrock with a clear message. It’s possible some young kids buy our CD, read our lyrics and read this kinda ideas for the first time. Maybe this is naïve, but hey, that’s where the song is about. Even if only two people decide to check out Indymedia after reading our lyrics, it’s enough to motivate us to go on with what we do.
Willem: We want to encourage the Aardschok reviewer to check out Indymedia (laughter)!  

Throughout the years you played as support to several ‘famous’ hc/punk bands. What are the worst and best experiences you have with these bands?
Bob: This is different from band to band. With some bands there’s almost no contact like for example Ignite a few months ago. Other bands are more ‘normal’. I don’t mean that Ignite isn’t normal, but other bands they don’t separate theirselves from the rest. They sit next to you with their beer, I mean water (laughter) to have a talk.
Willem: The way another bands threats you has nothing to do with how big a band is, but if the people are nice or not. We played with some more unknown bands who’re too arrogant to notice you, but we also played with some bigger names like in Ede with The Lawrence Arms in Ede (Holland). This band is on Fat Wreck Chords and it are great people.
Yvo: Someone in the band can be ill, or just tired. Too often people see this as arrogance. When we were on tour I wasn’t always in the mood to be really social and to talk with everyone. Sometimes I just felt more comfortable while laying in our bus and not talking to people.

How did you guys came in touch with this whole punk thing?
Willem and Yvo: Skating!
Willem: All of us were into skating. The songs you hear in skate videos are mostly punk songs, and I liked it.
Bob: Me too.

Do you have any wise closing comments?
Willem: Read our book! (laughter)
Yvo: Thanks for the interview. Ireally appreciate the existence of DIY zines like Smashed Images or other zines. This is much more important for the scene than what a big booking company like Mojo does.

Dit artikel verscheen eerder in Smashed Images#3, november 2005, magazine for music, politics & provcoation